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I'm engraving a work that will be played by a chamber ensemble. The violin parts have a rapid passage that does not give them enough time for a page turn for a significant span of time. Without making the print so scrunched it would be illegible, it takes up 4 pages. The violins are 1 player to a part, so there is no stand partner that could handle the page turn. I'm not interested in adjusting the content of the music to accommodate page turning. Would the following strategy work OK?

Format the pages so that the violin book (20 pages or so) leaves out two pages. If the passage in question is on pages 6, 7, 8, and 9, for instance, I'd skip pages 6 and 9. Then, after printing and binding the part, I'll tape pages 6 and 9 on the vertical edge of pages 7 and 8. Can I expect the player to fold this out to make a four-page spread? There would be sufficient time both before and after the passage.

Note that the players do not generally make use of tablets/PDF readers in performance, nor do I want them to. I've had these devices fail in rehearsal/performance too many times to rely on them for a big premiere.

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    It sounds like your solution could work but most music stands cannot hold more than 3 pages of music unless you use double stands or build some type of extension. Stand-Outs are an option for Manhasset stands. Are there literally no rests of more than a beat or so in an entire 4 page chart? Commented Sep 26, 2024 at 1:05
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    Only anecdotal, but I have seen my colleagues perform from fold-outs (some way bigger than 4 pages) many times when dealing with contemporary music. Yes, it’s annoying because you have to find an oversized music stand or manage to put the music stably on a few regular ones next to each other, but nothing out of the ordinary really. Managing a foldout requires a little bit of planning ahead of time but is hardly a show-stopper. Often you can also do tricks like having extra copies of (in your example) pages 6 and 9 next to the book from the start and flipping directly from 5 to the 7-8 spread. Commented Sep 26, 2024 at 14:59
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    What size paper are you using? Professionally printed parts are typically somewhat larger than A4/letter Commented Sep 26, 2024 at 17:40
  • How many players are we talking? 1, 2, ... whole section? If a section, they should be 2 to a part so one can turn pages. If just a few, then large pages taped together (with cardboard backing if necessary to stabilize) and/or spread across multiple stands. Commented Sep 26, 2024 at 20:37
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    @Luke Orchestral pieces commonly have half pages empty (or music engraved super sparsely) for that. I don't think that's the point as the OP mentions "passage that does not give them enough time for a page turn for a significant span of time", suggesting that this is not an option. Commented Sep 27, 2024 at 14:26

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There are Facebook groups dedicated to this kind of thing and professional players in those groups seem to universally hate foldouts (the word for what you describe).

If it’s chamber music, then the noise of even one player unfolding such a contraption would be distracting. Also there’s no reasonable expectation that the desks would be wide enough.

I’m also skeptical (along with the commenter) that four solid pages of continuous fast playing will make the ensemble eager to perform the work. If it’s an established composer then that would help. If it’s not an established composer then I would warn them that their career will depend partly on willingness of ensembles to perform their music.

If it’s not a world premier then someone before you has figured out how to engrave this, right? If it is, then an established composer would hopefully have a plan in mind already, and a non-established one should use caution as I mentioned above.

Above all, there should be some dialog between the composer and the ensemble about a part so extreme. Then they would agree on what to ask of the engraver and you shouldn’t have to guess and ask strangers on the internet.

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  • Wish I could triple upvote this answer. Such good advice. Commented Sep 26, 2024 at 8:14
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TLDR: Let the performers choose how to handle the challenge you've presented them.

I'll very respectfully offer a dissenting opinion to many of Todd's points.

Assuming that you don't want to simply alter your composition to create some page turns—give some material to a different part for moment, etc.—then "something's gotta give." Either players must have multiple pages laid out in advance, or they must make "heroic-efforts" turns, perhaps leaving out notes to do so, or they must use electronic screens. (Or other exotic solutions, like providing page-turners to each desk.)

In my experience and personal preference, laying out multiple pages is the easiest and best of these. That is, if you don't create foldouts yourself, the players will with photocopies and tape. If there's grumbling about foldouts, it's perhaps grumbling that players are being put in this position at all, not that having to whip through the pages one at a time would be preferable. There's much to grumble about, though: It does require extra equipment. The folded-out page will simply flop back and forth uselessly unless supported by something rigid. If these foldouts come as a surprise in rehearsal, they may well be useless unless there are extra music stands available, and room for them. The Manhasset "Stand-out" product works nicely but is proprietary and you have to have it on hand. I've often performed simply putting two stands side-by-side. Will there be room for so many to do this in the performance space, or is it an orchestra pit?

But to the concern about page-turning noise, the foldout is by far the winner. I don't see that this needs to be a big concern at all; every performance includes many page turns and they're often plenty noisy; it's just an artifact of live classical performance. Putting a page turn in a short rest will result in a desperate, violent turn that will be the noisiest option by far. If the player has the chance to arrange a foldout during a long rest or even between movements, then it can interfere minimally.

I would also reconsider not using tablets, at least with provisos. The first big one is one must always have a printed backup; as you say, there can always be problems. With paper and candles, you can perform even in a blackout. But I see many of my colleagues preferring tablets, and unless you want to ban them, e.g. for aesthetic reasons, they may well scan the parts and use them anyway. By the same token, you absolutely do not want to force them on anybody who doesn't want to use them. This can be about things like eyesight, astigmatism, etc., not just preference. So I've seen a number of gigs lately where two "stand partners" will use two stands, with a print copy and a tablet.

But ultimately, I would let the performers decide how to handle these passages. If you're writing for non-professionals, then they might be nonplussed. But professionals face this dilemma regularly, and have individually preferred ways of handling it. Some might just do a lightning-fast turn, perhaps even turning with their left hand while bowing an open string. Some will copy a single page and turn during a rest that's in the middle of the page. Some will do exactly what you propose, with photocopy and tape. But they will prefer to make their own choices rather than be forced into one.

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    I don’t feel like we materially disagree. The only area might be my experience is that more complicated layouts can be noisier than a simple turn of a typical page, although I agree that the noisiest by far is a rushed page turn. I agree the performers should be involved (far more than we should be!) and maybe we differ on when in the process that collaboration would start. If the ensemble is already selected I don’t see a reason to delay asking if the players have any preference in this area. I 1000% agree that prohibiting tablets is outdated. Especially when paper is around as a backup. Commented Sep 26, 2024 at 18:44
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I'd suggest creating a booklet where the first open spread contains p1 and p2 of the part.

When you turn the page the next spread presents p2 and p3 and when you turn the page again you get p3 and p4

The performer starts with the p1+p2 spread, and plays into p2, and there'll be some bars rest, at which point they can turn the page to the p2+p3 spread and carry on playing.

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    This can also be done with one-sided loose pages that can be slid; eg start with 1 + 2, during 2 slide it left to show 2+3. But the OP suggests that there are no rests at all for the span of four pages and is not interested in altering the material. Commented Sep 28, 2024 at 13:31

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